Treatments

Treating the Root Cause of Disease - Dr. Derek and Dr. Emma

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[00:00:00] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, Dr. Derek Lawrence here. I am with Dr. Emma, and we're both at Revive Naturopathic Medicine here. Just another round table talk that Emma and I wanted to have a conversation about, because it's really, the core of naturopathic medicine, and I think a big reason as to why, or what connects patients with wanting to come and see a naturopath, particularly one that goes to our clinic. I think that we bring an important perspective to this, and that topic is  treating the cause: "Treating the Root Cause" of disease and dysfunction. And what does that actually mean? I think the, beautiful and maybe challenging thing about that phrase is it can mean different things to different people. Depends on who you're sitting in front of. Right? And then as we were saying earlier, paying lip service, or actually walking that walk and talking the talk. So I do want to start this by kind of throwing over to you, Emma, because, this was your topic idea, and, I will get carried away talking if I don't let you start. 

[00:01:21] Treating the root cause: what is that, like, what does that mean to you in general and, maybe specifics, and how has that evolved? That perspective, how has it evolved over your time being a doc and working with patients? 

[00:01:43] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:01:43] Yeah. This is a super juicy topic and, I have a number of things to say about in terms of what it means.

[00:01:50] I think about treating the root cause as a process of walking through with a patient, the journey of going back to figuring out what the first domino was that really fell. That got the person to where they are now. Which, might sound upfront like, a simple thing, but when you're sitting with somebody who has, you know, three or four decades of life before they came to sit in front of you, quite often, there's a long history of from where things actually started.

[00:02:30] And part of that is a mindset of remaining really curious about how you got to this point, so that when you go to think about treatment, you're choosing a treatment that is supporting a sustainable solution. What I mean by that is if you don't actually go back to the thing that is causing or maintaining dis-ease or imbalance in the body, then that will just continue.

[00:03:03] Even if you suppress the symptoms that are showing up, there'll be something simmering, something that remains out of balance under the surface, and will either show up in another part of the body or just won't resolve the thing that you really want to resolve. It might not get you to feel the way you're looking to feel, which is healthy and energetic and good and like yourself again.

[00:03:27] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:03:27] Right. You know, I think we'll probably get into our individual kind of perspectives on this, but this is a... I use an example with a lot of my patients. I love analogy. I think there's so many out there in health, but like when, especially as naturopaths we start getting deep into nitty gritty.

[00:03:49] Right. We can get into some things where it's like, it's sometimes hard to like, what do you really mean by that? But like this example, I give people all the time. It's like, if you have high blood pressure, like you go to the doc one day and they haven't had your blood pressure measured. You have high blood pressure. It's 150 over 95. And then they say, well, you have high blood pressure. Here's a blood pressure medication. Right. And then you take, start taking a blood pressure medication. Now your blood pressure is 120 over 75. Awesome. Well, if you stop taking the medication, the blood pressure goes back up again.

[00:04:22] So you, never really treated the reason why that was present. We'll put a pause there for a second. Don't get me wrong in the context of high blood pressure. Like mitigating risk is important, right? I don't want my patients stroking out and getting heart disease. Like there's a, there's a reason why we do that and you can do it pharmaceutically.

[00:04:43] You can do it naturally, but it can't stop there. That, in fact, that's just the beginning and, getting our patients to a place where it's like, Oh, I don't need that anymore. This may be a very kind of superficial example when it comes to high blood pressure. But quite honestly, like these are the boots to the ground problems that people are kind of concerned about.

[00:05:06]I think it's our job to begin to introduce those other like layers, right? It's our job to say, like, alright, we've got to mitigate risk. I want my patients alive, but what's there? And. you know, you can put any problem kind of at the top of that. And I think the more kind of complex the problem, usually the more complex the root system is underneath of it.

[00:05:30]But I liked that example. Like I think it's really tangible for people to chew on, and it's simple and everyone's heard of high blood pressure. And half the people are on a medication or borderline anyways. So, you kind of mentioned something: it sounds simple. It does sound simple. It sounds like, well, why doesn't everybody do this? 

[00:05:48] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:05:48] Well, I think every doctor does believe that they are treating the root cause. And I think that their intention would be to do so. 

[00:05:57] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:05:57] Yeah. 

[00:05:57] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:05:57] I really do. I think they all want genuinely to help people at the root so that they can stay healthy. That's why we get into this.

[00:06:05] That's why we go through the struggle to become a doctor. And I think the thing that you touched on that is another key, aspect in our philosophy that is so important is the way that we understand symptoms. So. High blood pressure is diagnosis, but it's also a symptom. It's a symptom of something else.

[00:06:29] Blood pressure doesn't just pop up on its own for no reason. Something else happened first, and the body responded with this symptom and to me, I see symptoms as the body's language. It's the body's form of communication. In many cases, it is the body's wisdom, and that is like a 180, I think from the dominant conventional model of what symptoms are, symptoms are seen as a problem because as you pointed out, if somebody has unchecked high blood pressure, they could stroke out.

[00:07:04] That's a problem, but that's also the body saying, Hey, Something's not right. Fix this address this. Support me, help me. It's the body's cry for help. 

[00:07:17] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:07:17] It's a compensation, right? It's saying like, I'm trying my best. And I mean, the neat thing about some of our diagnostic tools, like a blood pressure cuff or lab tests, which can tell us some things that you may be, or, or patients may be can't articulate or feel or otherwise is they, they kind of give us some of these insights that there are compensations happening, you know, there are symptoms or, physiology that has been augmented to try to navigate as best as it can, and that, you know, it is wild to think about how, I mean you almost framed it as like a symptom as a good thing.

[00:08:00] I mean, if we didn't have a symptom, we would probably.... right? Who knows, like we were probably just decompensate and, and die, you know, that these are actually things that we kind of care about as naturopathic doctors to say, I recognize they're here. And then I want to watch those, you know, reduce in severity and frequency and intensity as we kind of work at our resolution.

[00:08:33] I think an awesome example of these ones clinically, cause you see a ton of kids: is like skin stuff, eczema, almost anything on the skin. And I can't tell you how many moms and dads I've spoken to and, you know, the kid has eczema. Right. And I tell them I don't treat skin topically. I just haven't found it relevant.

[00:09:01] And, that totally goes exact like opposite of a lot of times of what they get from a dermatologist or their pediatrician or primary care  where they only get skin stuff, steroids, antifungals, whatever it may be. Right. and I mean, at an eczema standpoint, it's usually a steroid cream, but I. I mean, I could count on a couple of hands how many cases I've solely used something topical. And it's very few, really, if any, because it's exactly that one of those external expressions of, from my perspective, gut, immune system, balances. Right? And...

[00:09:37] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:09:37] If I could add here too, that there is when you do this, I mean, especially for kids and kids are going to express things really intensely because they tend to be more vital there. Their body shows it in a, in a more vivid expression often, which is actually a reflection of health. Believe it or not, but the, there is a problem with treating it only topically, right? I mean, especially when we're talking about eczema, there is a risk of treating it, just topically of taking this way that the body is expressing something and bubbling over and just shutting the lid on that and shoving it deeper.

[00:10:17] That is actually a problem. It's something. The body is, is working out and we are the stopping part of that process. And yes, they are uncomfortable. Yes, it's eczema can be awful. It's it can be so debilitating. And if we're really concerned with the kids' whole health, we have to be very careful about how hard we push symptoms back in, where they came from.

[00:10:43] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:10:43] Yeah. Like a, almost like a pressure cooker that you can't like release the steam from where you can handle a fair amount until you can't. And sometimes that has to do with amount of pressure or duration that it's lasting there and something's going to fail. And, you know, going back to the original comment, you mentioned like when did this start? Right. That I think is a really, really interesting question for almost all patients because, if you're lucky, there'll be a degree of insight into something, but like, sometimes you're, you're just, you just dig it. And you're looking for like, when did, when did you know a trigger or something like that happen? So like, how do you, how do you, cause I know how I do it, but like how do you like try to flush some of that stuff out?

[00:11:37] Or like, what are you looking to hear in a history or what are you hoping people have either reflected on before coming or, or maybe reflect on after coming to see you from that perspective. 

[00:11:53] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:11:53] I always ask the patient what first there's a number of ways to answer this question. The first one is I always ask the patient what their intuition is about how this started, because I think people have a whole lot more insight about themselves and they sometimes give themselves credit for it.

[00:12:10] I listened to that. And then from there sometimes we'll keep asking the questions, keep asking: okay. So let's say that you really started noticing that as soon as you went to college, that your digestive issues got so much worse than they were in high school. Okay. Well, what happened in high school?  When did this switch?

[00:12:31] Oh, this started at menarche. Okay. Tell me about that time. Okay. Tell me about before that. Oh, You know, tell me about even your childhood. Like some of these things are patterns that started early, early on either patterns in, our stress response, which is a really big one. How is it that we process big changes? Maybe there were... 

[00:12:54] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:12:54] Or taught to process big changes. Or taught how to, you know, like, right. Like we model our behavior and our environment. Right. And so it's like, if you were, if your models did something in this direction and that maybe is less than desirable. 

[00:13:15] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:13:15] Yeah. Like maybe, maybe, As a woman, maybe you had a mom who had a really poor self image. And when she was upset, she would pull out the treats and they would eat their way through their feelings. Or maybe she would stand in front of the mirror and talk about all the things that were, that are not right. these things are, I mean, these are picked up and these are habits and in some families they're totally commonplace as totally normal. Or maybe, maybe you'd watch your parents drink. That's how you dealt with a stressful day. 

[00:13:45] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:13:45] Right? Right. That's like socially acceptable and common of like, Oh man, I had a day. Let's have a drink or, you know, and instead of it being, you know, two fingers, it's two fingers, right. 

[00:13:58] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:13:58] I mean, especially during COVID, this has been an extremely stressful time. And that is one thing I'm hearing across the board is that people are drinking a lot more alcohol now than they have before. And I get it. It's so stressful. It's like how, if you, if you don't have other ways of knowing how to unwind to relax your mind to unplug, or if you really just don't get a break because of whatever situation you're in it's it's tough. I can see how that happens. I had a, I had a couple of cases that came to mind, that I thought might be good examples to share kind of how we trace back, as another answer to your question. I had a  mom who was in her early mid thirties who came to me with asthma and she had, she had had asthma for years and she was exhausted, which was her number one complaint, and she was overweight and she couldn't sleep. The reason she couldn't sleep was because as soon as she laid down, she would just cough and cough and cough and cough. That was how her asthma presented as a, as a chronic cough. So of course she'd gone to her PCP and they had given they had upped her steroids. They had given her cough medicine. They had given her all kinds of things to try to stop the cough. And, this had been ongoing for three years and she had a two year old also, and she's working full time. So she's stressed out. She's tired. She can't think. She's gaining more weight. She can't breathe properly. She's got all the things going on. So amongst other things, one of the things that we did was to do a food sensitivity test, because I have seen a pattern with asthma that there, we know that in that asthma triad, the allergies, the eczema and asthma, food sensitivities can be a really big portion of that.

[00:15:56] So for her, a huge trigger, we went through that whole process and we were very specific about it. And for her eggs and dairy turned out to be massive triggers for her cough. And we worked through the process of eliminating those. We did a trial and as soon as we did took about three to four weeks for that cough to really reduce and for the phlegm to go down. But she started sleeping for the first time, like I said, in three years, and she was ecstatic. And so we got her sleeping and then as soon as she was sleeping, her energy started to go back up again. Then she was able to consider exercise, which she'd been missing. So she started walking and then eventually she started running, which she hadn't done for like a decade.

[00:16:42] And so we were able to start reducing the, the other medications, which helped her overall health. Her, clarity and her presence and her ability to play with her daughter came back again and eventually we started moving towards working with the gut and the immune imbalances, which were really at the core of that.

[00:17:05] And then the other part of the thing that we went to, if we're really talking about core causes, was she had, particular, her own particular ways of dealing with stressful responses like a stressful life. And, part of that was in reaching for sugar and then part of it was in not really knowing mentally how to be calm and still. And so that was the thing that we worked on.

[00:17:33] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:17:33] So now I've got a couple of questions for you in that case. Cause like, I mean, I love these, these cases cause they go like, okay, well these are the things that I think about. So one, I want to know what food sensitivity tests did you do because there's, you know, there's a gamut out there. So at this particular case at this time in your career, which one did you do? 

[00:17:51] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:17:51] Us biotech. 

[00:17:52] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:17:52] US biotech...finger prick, IgG or blood draw?

[00:17:56] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:17:56] Finger prick IgG 

[00:17:57] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:17:57] Finger prick. So easy to do at home or in the office, IgG food sensitivity. I mean, probably a topic for another day, as far as like the gamut of those different ones out there.

[00:18:08] US biotech, because they actually use, very good... They use ELISA testing and they advertise it on their website. There's a lot of food testing out there and they may not tell you what methods they use. They actually test their samples twice against controls and they are much more thorough than some of the ones I've seen. That's why. 

[00:18:27] Great. Yeah. And that's, that's valuable. The, I had a comment I was going to ask again. Oh, the finger pricks. I love those for the little kiddos. you know, when it comes to like testing kids, it's like, I I'm trying to, you know, I want to play good cop usually, cause I don't want to be the bad guy. but I find the fingerprint food sensitivity tests super useful when like mom and dad are like, I think it's something he's eating, but like, I just, like, it's re like, I can't fathom like doing an elimination diet with my four year old or my five-year-old's like, cool. Like, let's try to give you a little bit of insight, so it's not, you know, it's not so drastic of an intervention. It's, it's more of like alright we found these four things let's take them out and see what your kid does. okay. I wanted to know that. So thank you. The US biotech and yeah, we have those in the clinic now, now, thanks to you. 

[00:19:17] Secondly, did you ever think about, and do you think that maybe the dairy and egg food sensitivity was behind like a silent reflux, like a, so a GERD, a gastrointestinal reflux. It just like didn't feel like heartburn, but irritated the esophagus trachea enough that that was prompting the cough. 

[00:19:41] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:19:41] Yeah, certainly it could be. And, and if that's the case, that's a really good thing. She removed them because of their risk of having ongoing reflux. That is not good. 

[00:19:53] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:19:53] Did she ever try, sorry for interrupting, did she ever try, like from her primary care or even you like any like acid blocking medications to like test that theory? If that was behind it?

[00:20:04] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:20:04] She did. I believe she did. I don't, I don't quite recall all the medications she tried, but it was a lot. A lot of different things. and yeah, that was it. It definitely could have been reflux. That was a part of it it's always possible. And in the end, whether or not that was the case, the treatment that we chose got her to where she wanted to go and allowed her to reduce the asthma medication. So there may have been two things going on and in the end of this, It didn't really matter because ... 

[00:20:38] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:20:38] Well and in end in the you... 

[00:20:39] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:20:39] It resolved. 

[00:20:40] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:20:40] Yeah. Well, and not only did it resolve, but I could argue that in the end you treated the cause. Meaning you treated this kind of gut immune system imbalance. These foods were salt in the wound. Right. But the sensitivity, the irritability, the volatility kind of have that immunological reaction is a more of a core problem. cause we see this all the time. Where are, well, some of them like my patients, food sensitivities aren't as intense anymore. I've had that experience personally, where are you?

[00:21:14] Just like, all right. Like I'm not going to go and eat this all the time, but like a little bit, it doesn't bother me like it historically used to, and that speaks to a degree of resiliency. Right? So regardless of if it was an exaggerated immunological response, kind of causing some tracheal, bronchial inflammation, irritation, or silent reflux, but that was probably driven from some GI inflammation, et cetera, you know, that.

[00:21:41] It's kind of neat how that core treatment, because if you look at it through that lens, Can help both of those avenues, despite from a medication standpoint, those being like two very different, kind of conventional approaches there and seemingly neither of which were particularly successful, which is neat.

[00:22:03] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:22:03] Yeah. I mean, we were treating the body. 

[00:22:05] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:22:05] Yeah. 

[00:22:05] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:22:05] We're not treating the condition. We're treating the body and helping them find balance, which to me is really the way that you trace back and you treat the root cause and you're bringing up a great point too. So. When I talk about food sensitivity, some people are like, Oh, are you going to take away all my favorite foods forever?

[00:22:25] It's just like this, like till I die kind of a sentence? If, if you continue to do the work of tracing back to the true, cause it's not always, like some people will remain really sensitive despite extensive treatment and things. And I would argue that if the sensitivity never goes away way, then you may just never have found that root cause.

[00:22:47] You know, and most people it has to do with gut-immune imbalances, but there can be things driving the gut and immune imbalances that can be tricky to identify. It just takes time and digging and, patient involvement to do that. But, so for some people, once you take out the foods, take out those inflammatory triggers and treat the gut, then you find that either six months to a year, two years later that they can actually enjoy intermittent small amounts of those things again, without a problem. It's like they find their threshold and they don't necessarily have to be out of your diet forever and completely kind of thing. Like if they, if they get in there either accidentally or cause you're you know, at a party and there's really nothing else to eat situation, then it's not going to be a big deal. You've built up the resilience that you can handle that you can clear that. 

[00:23:39] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:23:39] Yeah. You know, and the, I want to hear the other case that you have, but I want to make a comment here and, go back to that case, the, the degree at which I think we....we'll call it, like treat the root. Cause I think it's like one of these things where you need to, meet your patient where they're at too, right? Where you're going to have some people who are coming in that are kind of very foreign to things like: sleep and how it interferes with our physiology. Stress and how it interferes with our physiology. Emotional health and how it interferes with truly with our core, like blood markers, you know, and how things like our gut and our intestines move and eliminate or don't and how those things are intimately connected. I think as, you know, like even with our long patient appointments there, there's sometimes going to be just like, kind of too much education to dump all of that in at one time. And, you know, you know, and one thing I like about, you know, the way you practice and I really make sure to emphasize this, maybe even a little bit more aggressively is that I really try to get my foot in the camp that they've come from, like their primary care has looked at AB and C. Right. Cool. Like, I want to know all of that. I want to know what they did, what they didn't do. And I want to fill in some of the holes that maybe fall into that physiological realm of lab tests or imaging or, you know, something that's a little bit more familiar to them and use that as like this parlay into okay. Like. So stress exists. Not only does it exist, I can measure it. And I did. And it's terrible, you know, or, you know, or something like that. Or like, you know, from a, maybe a mood stability standpoint. And you're looking at some of like peripheral understanding of maybe their neurotransmitter levels or, or, you want to start to help them understand gut health and what that means, cause it's so beautiful and elegant, but. some numbers have an H pylori marker, you know, or a gut inflammation marker, or just like that, a food sensitivity marker helps like bridge that gap of saying, okay, this person, you know, gets where I'm, where I've come from. And I feel like confident that they can kind of like we can lead them into. Alright heres's that next deeper level.

[00:26:23] And then when you get there, you get to go even deeper and you get to go even deeper. You know, I tell some of my patients that, like, I think I'm pretty good at getting people to be weird, but they don't always start weird when they come and see me. I think they think they're normal when they start seeing me, and then there's a couple of years down the road, all of a sudden they're just like, I'm strange. And like, go like, yes, welcome. 

[00:26:45] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:26:45] Yeah, Welcome to the real you, isn't it awesome? 

[00:26:50] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:26:50] Yeah. It's fun to take people through that. Right. And not only is it fun to take people through that. It's fun. Yeah. It's fun to take them through it and also show them every step along the way that.

[00:27:05] Here's some literature backing exactly what we're talking about. Here's some experience that you've had, you know, proving that we're like in the right arena. And we are making this wonderful headway and like all of that just builds their confidence in, well, not only you as a teammate and helping them get well, but also themselves, because as you know, we put a lot of homework and work onto our patients and say like, I would like you to do this and if you do this, I'm expecting you to get a, B and C as a return. And then when they do, they go like, Holy smokes, I did that. And it's like, you did, I didn't, I just told you to do it. I didn't actually make you do it.

[00:27:48] I just suggested that. and, and then they gained this almost like empowerment of: oh, I can make good choices for myself. Right. and, become a little bit more in touch. And that's a really fun experience to be a part of when your patients just become better because of what they've, they've done. 

[00:28:11] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:28:11] That's where I see, and this, some people I think, Have a hard time wrapping their minds around like what you're getting at, but that's where I see dis-ease and illness as an enormous opportunity. It is an opportunity to get to know ourselves and to reconnect with our body, to start trusting it, to start learning how to listen to it and how to work in tune with it and support it. It doesn't feel that way when you feel like crap doesn't feel like any kind of opportunity, but if you really are getting to the root cause it is an opportunity to see where, like, where is that initial rub? Where are things aligned in either in how we're operating in life or in how we're treating ourselves?

[00:29:03] And when the body is imbalanced, it i. Trying to show us, it's trying to tell us, trying to communicate something we have to learn to listen really deeply. 

[00:29:13] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:29:13] So, so for someone who's listening to this thus far, what, what do you listen for then in a history for, you know, what kind of sets off alarm bells or triggers, you know, or we'll call like triggers of root cause or triggers of dysfunction. Like, what do you listen for? 

[00:29:37]Dr. Emma Andre: [00:29:37] There's a few things I would say. I am really curious about how people see themselves. And what they think about themselves. And I'm curious about how they see themselves in the world. Like I am, I'm often very curious about what people's world view actually is. Like what, just what they believe in terms of their place in the world, because that very much determines our mindset and our mindset is what we operate from. 

[00:30:15] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:30:15] Right.

[00:30:16] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:30:16] So as an example, this is kind of like out there right now. So like, as, as a concrete example, if somebody thinks... if somebody operates from a place of," I don't have anything valuable to offer. I'm worthless." or "If people really got to know me, they wouldn't like me. So I'm going to, I'm gonna just gonna keep my freaky self, like under this, this guise, and I'm just, nobody's going to really get to know me. I'm going to put up walls." That will make it hard for us to, that will make it hard for that person to ever open up. Or to share or to ever get vulnerable there's, in that kind of a presentation, there's like this sense of like a tension. Of holding in and of holding on and in different people that will show up physically in very different ways.

[00:31:14] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:31:14] Let me guess they're constipated!

[00:31:16] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:31:16] It could be!

[00:31:17] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:31:17] Right? Like I'm just, I just got a hold on. Yeah, yeah. Or like that jaw tension, right? Where like all night, they're just like, "No!" Their teeth, they're just rubbed raw. 

[00:31:31] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:31:31] Yeah. It could be back pain. It can be knee pain. I mean that if you really want to get to the root of it, whenever we forget how incredible we truly are, how, from my perspective, how divine we truly are, whenever we forget that there is something inside of us that, knows that that's not right. And it can produce a kind of internal friction and our body will get us to listen in one way or another. 

[00:32:02] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:32:02] Oh, that give me chills. Yeah and so what I'm hearing when I hear you say this, I go, I'm so happy to have you here. because like when I go, when I answered that question for myself and I go like, okay, well, what am I listening for in a history? Like my brain is a little more, like a little more mechanical in the way of like, I want to know. Okay. Like, did you get sick? Was there trauma? Right. Like literally things that, that, tax, like tax the physiology on the body. Right. or, or like, you know, infectious gastroenteritis. Cause I see a lot of gut health components like w like where was, or what was that trigger? Sometimes you're going back to like, Oh, it was a little kid and I never pooped and, or it wasn't breastfed or fill in the blanks. Right. But, I love that under the roof of the clinic, we, we have like those, kind of synergistic minds because, you know, while, people can actually come and see both of us. It also just helps to know that like, like we get to have these conversations and like, then, you know, you're just like in my ear, you're like, "Derek, go deeper." you know, and you know, and it's, it keeps these things on the radar so that, you know, we just don't, we don't get lost in the mechanism, and we can entertain that and also entertain, you know, other components that are like, I wouldn't say outside of physiology, but they really aren't. They're this mindset behavior way in which it kind of sets forth our physiological responses. So, I'm grateful.

[00:33:53] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:33:53] Your body....here's something I like to remind people that your body is like, it's like an obedient puppy. It will always do what the higher levels. It will always be reflecting higher levels of your mental-emotionall wellness and your spiritual wellness.

[00:34:13] The body is kind of the last place where these truths show up. And it's usually the place where we first realize and feel like, Oh, something's off. And the more tuned in we are, the more we practice. Listening. And this is not a skill. Most people are taught. So for some people, this feels really foreign at first, and I believe every person can learn to do it if they really wish to get to the root cause.

[00:34:36] And what you brought up about trauma is so important. I mean, that is a huge thing that I like to know about and that I like to ask about because there can an inciting event, whether really big. And kind of obviously big like, physical trauma or abuse from a parent or something like that. That seems like an obvious trauma use something that seems kind of small.

[00:35:03] Like being bullied at school that can have a really profound impact or somebody saying something that as a kid, when we were really susceptible, suddenly shifted our perspective of ourselves and it never got shifted back into the right spot. And a lot of people, they've done, you know, either talk therapy to try to resolve some of these things and maybe have gotten part of it or they, they haven't, and they've put it in the past and they've shut the door on it said, like that was awful. I don't want to revisit that. And one of the biggest things that I see that trauma can do, and I see this a lot in women is that, that it will, if at some point, man or woman, somebody experienced a physical trauma. Let's say it was, a woman who was raped when she was really young, when that happened the best way for her to survive. That situation was to disconnect from her body physically disconnect and to not feel what's happening. So that disconnect, though often will mean that they never reconnect. And so I've seen women come in, who, from the collarbone down, have no idea what's going on in their body, because they're so disconnected because they did it to survive an, a horrible situation.

[00:36:27] So I'll ask them, they might have digestive stuff going on. They're like, I know there's something going on. It's like, well, where does it hurt? And they're like, I--I don't know. You know? And so in order to actually treat that, it's not like I'm going to do psychotherapy. I don't do that trauma work. That's not my specialty realm. There are people who are really trained in that, and that is something different. But in terms of learning to work with the body and learning how to actually treat the digestive piece, at some point, it is really helpful to reconnect with the body. And if we actually want to be able to listen to our intuition and know what's right for us in a way that no other person in the world can know, not even the best doctors out there, because they're not that thing in your body, you need to have, you need to slowly reenter and start feeling.

[00:37:23] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:37:23] Right. Yeah. Whew.

[00:37:28] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:37:28] Yeah. 

[00:37:30] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:37:30] That's a big visit. Yeah. 

[00:37:32] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:37:32] Yeah. Well that is not one visit. 

[00:37:36] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:37:36] That's the truth, but I mean, that's the value of a relationship, right? And I think that that is, something that I'm always trying to build with a patient is, is not, I don't want you to do what I tell you to do. I want you to learn from the experience that I've gained and the insights that I may have, and the, you know, the places where I chose to educate myself and helping me help you solve these problems and build context into why you are doing these things. And, I think it helps create better educated humans. I think it helps to create people who are a little more in touch with what's going on and then in touch when something's off and either know what to do or know where to go, go to, try to, you know, achieve that. So, let's, let's end with the let's end with a new, another like good case from like, again, the concrete example, cause these ones are really fun and digestible. No pun intended. If it's a GI case. 

[00:38:43] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:38:43] They so often are, aren't they? At least that's what comes through my door a lot. I see a lot of, I see a lot of GI cases. yeah, I had a young, 20 something gal who came in and her chief complaint was that she had rashes on the front of her thighs. And, 

[00:39:01] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:39:01] I want to stop you there.

[00:39:03] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:39:03] Yes. 

[00:39:03] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:39:03] Okay. So rashes on the thigh from your like conventional brain or conventional medicine approach, like what does she have? Like, what's a rash. Like what does it matter if she has a rash on her you know, on her, on her shins or whatever, it, may be. 

[00:39:21] It mattered 

[00:39:21] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:39:21] a lot to her cause she couldn't wear shorts, but I'll say from a conventional perspective that, I would have, I would think of it as like, ingrown hairs from the physical rubbing of pants after she had shaved.

[00:39:35] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:39:35] Hmm. Okay. 

[00:39:38] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:39:38] But she had gone to a dermatologist and they had given sort of "meh" advice. She tried it and it didn't help. So, she, She also had as a side note allergies, like seasonal allergies. Which most people would not think that the two are really connected, but it turns out they were. She had some, so she had that and they were the rashes themselves were kind of inflamed. When you looked at him, it was like the hair follicles looked inflamed. So, this wasn't the first thing we did, but just to make this a little bit shorter. One of the things we ended up doing was looking at the kind of, foods that she was eating and we ended up doing a celiac disease screen on her, which most people wouldn't think to do because, she was, her family was from India, which with that cultural descent celiac disease is not the first thing you think to test for. But we were talking about one of the things that she was going to trial was removing gluten. And, I don't like to take anyone off of gluten before take, trying to take celiac disease off the table because you can't test for it once you take it out.

[00:40:51] And there's a lot of people walking around, not knowing that they have this and it's a big deal if they do. So we tested her and h her antibodies to see to her gut celiac disease markers were off the charts. So what we do if we see that is we also get them hooked up with a gastroenterologist, because you have to confirm that diagnosis with an endoscopy, which she did and was positive. So, she had, so she, she ended up removing gluten because that's one of the things that you do as a part of the treatment. And then we went back and also, rebalanced her gut and helped her with her stress response. And in taking gluten out of her diet, the rashes completely cleared up and her allergies went away, which was a surprise to her, but not to me. And knowing what I know about that, the gut and the immune system, they're their buddies. They live in the same spot in the body and the gut and you treat one while the other is, is impacted. So, yeah, it was a really cool case. And. we did also talk about her mindset around, stress for one thing and another interesting theme of, how she would mentally attack herself, which is on a side note, is an interesting pattern that is not too uncommon in autoimmune diseases. It's almost like a mindset reflection of what's happening in the system. Not always there, but happens to be. 

[00:42:23] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:42:23] But it can be, yeah. So do you think, I mean, so we both know that a skin condition commonly associated with celiac disease that is dermatitis herpetiformis reflecting back  did it have that quality or was it truly more of a folliculitis type presentation?

[00:42:43] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:42:43] It was really more of a folliculitis presentation, but, yeah, that's, that's how I remember it. It was a little while ago, years ago, but that's how I remember it. Didn't, it didn't look like a classic dermatitis  herpetiformis like what you might Google and find. 

[00:42:59] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:42:59] Yeah. Right, right. You know, the, I love that case because it has a little bit of everything in it in the way of. Honestly, I mean, celiac diseases are really important diagnosis to know about. It can be a very significant condition if left unchecked from, I believe it increases risks with lymphoma. it certainly can participate in osteoporosis and bone mineral density, especially as you get older, because it causes significant, you know, malabsorption, But on other levels too, right?

[00:43:35] I mean, it clearly was causing a large... one, kind of inflammatory burden in her body, which causes a immune disruptive burden in her body, making her more sensitive to environmental insults. Right. Which went away, it was disrupting the kind of likely the microbiome, not only her gut, but also her skin, because our skin is really supposed to be in this kind of self regulating ecosystem. And then when stuff's on it, it's not, it's just not doing its job. Right. And you have to kind of look as to why, but, and then, you know, the autoimmune nature of celiac disease and, you know, as you commented on like some of the, self-talk that can be behind that, you know, it's, it's things we dig into and it's interesting how frequently they come up, right. that's a cool case to end on. Thanks for sharing that one. I, I liked that cause it, it, it reflects all the little, like real serious medical diagnosis, the functional restoration of health, which is above and beyond just removing gluten is actually getting things like stable again. And can't tell you how many celiac disease cases like didn't do any work after removing gluten and they just still are floundering and it's like, you have to put in some work, there was years of potential damage. We've got to help repair that a little faste. Get a little glutathione and get a little, you know, like, like let's, let's, let's fix this. Right. And then on top of that, right. I think, some, probably some pretty valuable stuff for her from, one could say like, just like life coaching standpoint of how, how do we exist on this planet in a, just a little bit happier more balanced kind of way. that's or that's a good case. Good case examples. Thanks for sharing that. 

[00:45:28] Dr. Emma Andre: [00:45:28] Yeah.

[00:45:29]Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:45:29] Well, you know, for time's sake and for, Kellie's sanity's sake, let's wrap up this video, on our "Treat the root cause." I'm sure we could keep going on, cause it takes us all of these wonderful places. So yeah. For anyone who stuck around this long, I'm dr. Derick this is dr. Emma. We're at Revive Naturopathic Medicine. This is on YouTube, if you're not watching it there, you can subscribe to our channel for more of them. Not only with dr. Emma, but also with the other docs that Revive and, and will also be kind of posted on social media.

[00:46:01]If you've got any kind of questions or comments regarding anything that we did mention.I mean, we do monitor that and would love to kind of engage in a little conversation. If at all possible, if you want to hear something, you know, from my mouth or from Emma's mouth, let us know. We love doing these. We do it just for fun. A little  Friday fun this week, because when you get a couple of naturopaths together, they love talking about Naturopathic Medicine,

[00:46:25] So, thank you, Emma. And, we'll have another one of these shortly.

SIBO - Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth: Trends, Symptoms, and Treatment

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Kellie - Marketing: [00:00:00] Welcome back everybody. This is Kelly from revive naturopathic medicine, and I am back with Dr. Derek Lawrence and Dr. Brian Myers. Today, we're going to be talking about something called SIBO, small intestinal, bacterial growth. Which is difficult for me to say, but hopefully for these doctors, they know a little bit more about this topic, so take it away. Dr. Derek and Dr. Brian. 

[00:00:32] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:00:32] Perfect. Thank you, Kellie. Yeah, SIBO or SIBO, "small intestinal bacterial overgrowth " is a pretty common condition, I think in both mine and Dr. Myers is practice and, and really today I want it to I really want to take an opportunity to kind of log this ball into, into Brian's court as a, and put them on the spot a little bit to tell us more about SIBO trends that he sees in it how he's going about treating it.

[00:01:02] And we actually have some results that we'll share on this video, obviously with any identifying information Hidden so that you can actually see how we diagnose a small intestinal bacterial overgrowth what the test results look like and you know how that kind of interpretation will go. I'll, I'll talk a little bit about, you know, my kind of understanding of this.

[00:01:30] Problem. And, and the cases in which I, I, I look at testing it for, and usually it's going to involve a lot of GI upset and these are so things like a lot of gas and bloating, right? These are, these are commonly symptoms of SIBO heartburn. In fact, we'll look at As well constipation can be there as well, but some of the symptoms can even trickle more into folks who you know, have other what we'll call like extra intestinal problems as well.

[00:02:01] And, and, and I know for sure, Brian, that you'll hit on some of that. So I will I'm going to kind of pass the intro over to you. And I want to hear kind of your take just on SIBO as a condition. You know, who's, who's kind of starting to raise flags or what symptoms start to raise flags for you as to, well, is this person suffering from this and and or how this condition can manifest in the real world.

[00:02:29]And then we'll maybe dive into. Some of the lab results and I'll see what you have to say about them. Right? 

[00:02:34] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:02:34] So let's establish a little bit of anatomy first. So Below our lungs in our the core of our body sits the stomach from the stomach, we have the small intestine the duodenum, jejunum and ileum.

[00:02:46]The ileum connects to the large intestine, which runs up the right side, across our lower abdomen, and then down the left side of our lower abdomen and out the backside. So. SIBO small intestine, bacterial overgrowth means that the bacteria that typically colonizes our large intestine has for.

[00:03:10] Whatever reason crept up into the small intestine and caused a bit of an overgrowth there. It's not just for whatever reason. Those reasons we'll get into a little bit later. But those bacteria aren't necessarily pathogenic bacteria. They tend to be part of the. Gut flora that we want to have in our gut, in our large intestine, but tend to cause a little bit of havoc in our small intestine.

[00:03:36]They tend to gobble up some of the nutrients that we would otherwise be better served the receiving ourselves. And then they tend to produce a fair bit of gas by way of fermenting or they tend to ferment in our small intestines, some of those nutrients. And then that manifests as either from the feeling of like a food belly or a food baby where you have this like distended abdomen and potentially some pain from the amount of gas being produced.

[00:04:02] And, you know, that ends up being flatulence or Or, or, or burping belching and that's for some people unsavory for others, still it's downright owl. And, you know is this bad or good? It's not great in the sense that you know, we're missing out on the nutrients that we would like to be providing ourselves.

[00:04:21] And for some people that can lead to more serious complications down the road. And then there's a range of severity with SIBO too, as there is with most things. So some people might have. Underlying SIBO and just not even know it. I just think I get a little gassy sometimes and that's no big deal. 

[00:04:36] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:04:36] Yeah. There's, you know, the way I explain to people, as they say, it's normal bugs in the wrong spot, right. It's there the generally supposed to be there, but for, you know, factors, ABC and maybe even some unknown ones you got too many in the wrong spot and You know, most of my patients are familiar with either things like kombucha or maybe some aren't or beer.

[00:05:02]But you know, when you crack that kombucha, you crack that beer, you get carbonation, right. That is a product of fermentation, right? That's what these bugs do. They ferment basically carbohydrates right from our food. And then they produce this gas And, you know, when I think a lot of us have maybe, you know, shaken up a soda, beer blows all over the place.

[00:05:30]Dr. Brian Myers: [00:05:30] That explosion's happening in your small intestine.

[00:05:33] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:05:33] Yeah and that's a totally like digestible way to explain it because. Everybody's had either that belch or maybe like heartburn or reflux from that gas literally causing kind of pressure dynamic issues and causing Harper. And, you know, inevitably someone's also sat on the toilet and had a degree of explosion as well.

[00:05:57]For one, you know, at one point in time in their life. But some people suffer from this and you know, I'm sure you've had these cases, Brian, like there are some people who like have to plan their day around where's the bathroom. 

[00:06:14] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:06:14] Yeah. Like we mentioned, these bugs tend to produce a fair bit of gas that gas can be hydrogen, methane or sulfide producing.

[00:06:23] And those tend to. Kind of manifest a little bit differently. Some people tend to towards having a bit of diarrhea. And again, that's where you're literally planning your day around. Like where are these bathrooms? Because I don't know when this is going to happen and that's just frankly unsavory.

[00:06:38] And then some people attend a bit towards constipation, which is unpleasant for other reasons. I mean, you know, just not having a bowel movement, you know, for, you know, a day or two or three or. Or even more, can be really uncomfortable for some in, and they're, you know, on toward long-term side effects from that too.

[00:06:57] Yeah. Eactly 

[00:06:59] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:06:59] on both sides of those, you can actually like they're uncomfortable symptoms, but left long enough or severe enough that they can actually be like pretty serious problems. Diarrhea can leave people chronically dehydrated. That's not uncommon. You know, I mean, you can leave, we can talk about malnourishment later, but that's an, you know, another component, but you know, chronic diarrhea can certainly do that.

[00:07:27] And on the flip side of that, chronic constipation, not only can you actually cause tissue changes in your colon, right. Where it's actually starting to expand in size and then it can lose its ability to properly kind of Create normal motility. But you can be more susceptible for things like hemorrhoids impaction, which is basically just like the stool doesn't move out.

[00:07:52] Right. We've had those cases a little bit more common in sometimes kids and elderly than general adults, but but it happens. And you know, from a more naturopathic standpoint, one of the things that we know is. There's like there's in Carol hepatic circulation, right? There's like, there's literally re-circulation of, of biochemical compounds.

[00:08:13] We'll call them that because summer. Helpful right movie, we recycled bile salts. We recycle fluid and that's important, but simultaneously all these bacteria also have endotoxin as well. And if we are recycling that or recycling estrogens at an expedited rate or other kinds of toxic stuff that we'd kind of want out of the body.

[00:08:35] We've almost secondarily now burdened the body in a whole different mechanism, which can have its whole other gamut of symptoms of, you know kind of Inbar toxicity, overwhelm, stressing, or liver detoxification pathways. So it you're you're spot on. It can be simple or not simple, but it can be less severe and it can be more is so spot on because someone might have a little Burbank.

[00:09:01] Another person. It could be the crux of a real complex health issues. You know, we talk about gas and bloating and, and I think people can identify with that. But like, let's expand that to say, Oh, well, what else? So like what other, from a symptom standpoint? Cause no, one's walking around saying. I think I'd see both acting up again, right?

[00:09:25] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:09:25] No, but they do say, I think I have a food baby after the annoying.

[00:09:29] Kellie - Marketing: [00:09:29] I wanted to ask, how do I know when to come in? Like, how do I know as a patient or someone who's listening to this know if this is something I should come in to see you guys? Or if this is just something I should wait out for a couple of days.

[00:09:46] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:09:46] I mean, if you're not having at least a bowel, not you specifically, but the whomever if you're not having at least a bowel movement today, you know, and you're having you're missing days between bowel movements, that would be an interesting. And, and noteworthy thing to mention to your practitioner.

[00:10:01]Also if you're having loose stools or not, well formed stools on a regular basis excessive gas manifesting as belching or flatulence is, is another. I mean, we've kind of like nailed that one down as, as the most hallmark sign, but I mean, people dealing with migraines, weight, loss, weight, gain.

[00:10:19]I just want to hit migraines again and also just say headaches too.  Issues with staying hydrated waking frequently at night overnight difficulty sleeping, skin pathology, skin rashes can all you know, be a derivatives of, of SIBO or small intestine, bacterial overgrowth. 

[00:10:39] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:10:39] Kellie, I'll share with you a couple of things that I find that I keep my radar open for. And one of them is is if someone's missing a gallbladde r. If they're missing a gallbladder--gallbladder you know, to save a long anatomy lesson, basically stores the bile that your liver produces and then is designed to dump it into the small intestine around mealtimes.

[00:11:04] And that helps us absorb our fats. And it also helps us dump other kinds of toxic compounds to be eliminated out of our gut. But one of the  functions that it also has is it, is it has this some anti-microbial capacity as well. And it keeps the the small intestine more regulated from a microbial growth. On that same front, I think low stomach acid production. Is another key component and we're rolling into "causes," but let me, let me give you the symptom that that often presents with is heartburn. So that's a real common one that I'm in this chronic heartburn cases where they've been on Pepcid prilosec. Like they they've been on something for. You know what, five plus years, the first six weeks? 

[00:11:57] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:11:57] None of those are supposed to be long-term therapies. And if you've been on those for a longterm, then please talk to your practitioner about that. They're not designed to be used in that way. And they, you know, we talked about fermentation before, and that's, you know, when you don't have enough stomach acid, guess what that means doing venting and rotting and. And that's, you know, like that can lead to all of those things that we talked about, from diarrhea to constipation. 

[00:12:27] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:12:27] Yeah. That heartburn is, is one of the first ones we'll, we'll look at burping reflux, all that kind of stuff. What are the other. Conditions. It's a very small sub segment of the population, but I have a couple of people who fall on the spectrum.

[00:12:44] Is that the hypermobility Ehlers Danlos syndrome folks? I don't think I have a case of that without SIBO. And then head injuries. So people who have had traumatic brain injuries concussions, mild to severe Really common environment for SIBO to overgrow. You know, my theories behind that is, is some of the most likely some of just the nervous system connection to proper gut motility has been compromised from, from literally from head trauma.

[00:13:18]Granted there's probably a multifaceted mechanism there as well, but you know, those are population basis that I think. You know, if you're, if you fall into one of those and you're kinda bloated or what we'll call like irritable bowel syndrome me, right. I mean like how annoying is that diagnosis? And because it's not, it's just saying, like, I don't know what else to call this, so we'll just call it that and hope that's satisfactory, but it's not, I think we've, we've found, and I've seen this in the literature that a large majority of, of those IBS cases are just iron 

[00:13:50] diagnosed SIBO.

[00:13:52] Right. And 

[00:13:52] just like, it's so simple, but they tend to be, and it's at least worth exploring if you've been told you have IBS. Yeah. And you said it's not so simple. I think that we'll roll us into what you were coming and going is a good next topic. Right? So What, what causes this, you know, like what do you what do you know causes it?

[00:14:13] What do you think participates in it? Like, you know, well, some of my thoughts, like the gallbladder, right? And low HCL, like a little bit more of my thoughts and clinical experiences, but like tell us a little bit more about that. 

[00:14:27] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:14:27] Yeah. I think Any sort of bowel irregularity or consistent bowel irregularity can be a contributing factor. But a lot of times it's history of antibiotic use or recent history of antibiotic use history of food poisoning. We've talked about low stomach acid and like the gut brain connection or disconnection in some cases Thyroid dysfunction on either end of that spectrum could be a contributing factor or a cause.

[00:14:56]And then since we're talking about thyroid, we might as well mention HPA access dysfunction. So HPA, meaning hypothalamus and pituitary, along with our adrenal glands and any sort of dysfunction among those important parts of our body large intestine dysbiosis that the presence of pathogens can be.

[00:15:13] Cause even though, you know, we've kind of alluded to, that's not always the case or that these bugs aren't always bad. They can be, and you know, that just is a complicating factor then gut inflammation in general. So like our, our people that are dealing with like inflammatory bowel disease or celiac are, are certainly at risk.

[00:15:32]Yeah. Do you have other ones? There are more...

[00:15:35] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:15:35] Yeah, there are more, you know, I think it's a couple other ones that we should mention is, is history of food like food poisoning, right? Like, you know, acute gastroenteritis, that's you know went down, ate this taco and it just wasn't it wasn't. Right, right.

[00:15:53]And that seems to set off some immunological susceptibility for this condition to exist. I have a large female patient base and another one is intestinal adhesions. And the reason why I bring out the females on that is that you know, sometimes they've had things like hysterectomy or yeah, or C-sections these are surgical interventions that then of course, you know, need to heal.

[00:16:17]Adhesions are like scar tissue and like scar tissue connecting from these organs to your intestines and it could compromise the motility of the, and the proper kind of motility of the small intestine and the large intestine as well. But that is a system that can be set up to develop SIBO.

[00:16:38]And, and when we talk about gut motility, I'll take a little aside on here cause it's kind of in the causes kind of headline here. You know, some people think of gut motility as well. I poop every day. Right? You can poop every day and have SIBO. The motility that we tend to reference, right, when we're talking about SIBO is this intricate part of the small intestine called the migrating motor complex.

[00:17:01]And this is like, A component of like the infra muscular component of the small intestine that is designed to like sweep well, food, but also bacteria out. Right. And so when we talk about motility that is a really what we're referencing when it talks to SIBO is the health and integrity of the migrating motor complex. I think from you know, we talked about head injury component. I think that that is probably where some of the damage comes in on that front, but, but there, you don't necessarily need a head injury to have a poor migrating motor complex function. And it's also why laxatives don't solve this problem.

[00:17:43] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:17:43] And even herbal laxatives, some of those herbs that we use to have regular bowel movements you're right. I mean, constipation and, and the use of laxatives, as well as some of those other things that migrating motor complex is, is pretty essential. And like you mentioned, it's kind of like a it's, it's a coordinated effort from our muscles to just kind of squeeze everything all the way out and just kind of say like, here we go.

[00:18:05] Let's let's, let's do a quick cleanse. You know, that that tends to not occur unless we've been, you know, in a, in a foodless state for at least four hours. We tend to have one that occurs in the morning. And those are pretty essential to like keeping keeping regular healthy bowel habits. 

[00:18:25] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:18:25] Yeah. Well, let's let's pivot this. I'm going to lob something into your court. Brian, I got test results and I want your on the spot interpretation of them. So let me let me share my screen here so you can see these

[00:18:52] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:18:52] somebody's in trouble. 

[00:18:54] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:18:54] Yeah, I guess so. I wanted to avoid that. So I put my headphones in. 

[00:19:01] Kellie - Marketing: [00:19:01] That was the SIBO police.

[00:19:03] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:19:03] That was the SIBO police. Can both of you see this? 

[00:19:05] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:19:05] I can. 

[00:19:06] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:19:06] Okay, great. So you know, our, our information is hidden here, but so this is Commonwealth diagnostics. This is a SIBO test. I'll talk briefly about the test and the test collection.

[00:19:18] It's actually a breath test. So the, the mechanism that we're, we're trying to capitalize here is, is on measuring that gas production. So the test involves drinking a little sugary drink made from a lactulose there's different SIBO tests out there, but lactulose is kind of the more consensus of the better one to do . You drink the lactulose.

[00:19:39] And then every 15 minutes you breathe into a test tube. And your breath is going to contain. And then of course, you'd cap very quickly is going to contain certain levels of methane. Certain levels of hydrogen is going to condense certain levels of carbon dioxide, obviously, cause it's your breath. But we look at that and we referenced how much hydrogen, how much methane is being produced at these different time intervals.

[00:20:05] And these time intervals are meant to reflect kind of like where the transit through the small intestine and And so, you know, this is a, this is a test that you were looking for. If a person has SIBO, sometimes either high baselines and gases or spikes of hydrogen or methane, which will reflect too many bugs, hyper fermenting that sugar.

[00:20:31] Cause the thing about lactulose is we can't absorb it as, as humans. We don't absorb it but the bugs can use it. Right. And, and then we breathe in these tubes and we get a reflection of how much gas is being produced. So you know, I know Brian, you're familiar with these results. What's going on here?

[00:20:49] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:20:49] Well this looks like a positive result for SIBO, small intestinal, bacterial overgrowth. And the reason why we see that is ... The, the chart on the left is, is a pretty handy representation of those time intervals. Dr. Derek was talking about, so, you know, we can see that there was a small rise in hydrogen, early on, but we see a, a quite a bit larger rise towards the end of the of the chart there a little bit later on.

[00:21:15]And so as he said, we're trying to approximate Moving through the small intestine and then looking for peaks or changes in either of these gases which would indicate a positive SIBO test. Sometimes they come back and we may, you know, it's, it's possible that there are blooms of these bacteria that are between those time intervals.

[00:21:35] And, and that can be a little bit challenging when we're trying to interpret these results, but this test looks to be positive. As we see a combined effort from both the hydrogen and the methane a little bit later on, so. Yeah. I would definitely consider treating this patient for SIBO but also would want to take into consideration their their, their, their clinical history as well.  But that's probably what led to the decision to run this test. 

[00:21:59] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:21:59] So, yeah. I think if we, you know, if you get the best SIBO minds in  the room that symptoms do matter. You know, because, and they matter usually more in the cases that are a little more vague. You know where they're not overtly. Oh yeah.

[00:22:20] Like this is rip roar and high positive, like, okay. Like that's easy to interpret. Right. But they're the ones where it's like, well, there seems to be a little bit of an, a vagueness in these results and a borderline result. That's where symptoms and treating that human. Tends to matter a lot more.

[00:22:38] Well, I will I'll I will confirm with you, you like, but yes. Also commonwealths agrees with you that, that the presence of bacterial overgrowth here is supported, you know, this to me screams of, you know, hydrogen dominant SIBO. 

[00:22:54] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:22:54] Yeah, I mean, you can clearly see that towards the end, as we see that huge spike in hydrogen.

[00:22:58] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:22:58] Yeah. Okay. And given symptoms. And of course I didn't, there was no, there's no privy to these,  o these symptoms as well. There, you know, one of the things that we commonly look at, if we're looking at hydrogen or methane dominance is, is it's higher correlation with constipation, you know, as you mentioned that was not present in this case.

[00:23:21] So it kind of takes another kind of notch in the art. Well, we're likely looking at this, causing a problem. So yeah, I, I agree with you wholeheartedly on those results there and this this. Is arguably a patient of ours. And I'll say that because these are actually my SIBO results. 

[00:23:40] I you know, I wanted to say...

[00:23:42] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:23:42] It happens to the best of us.

[00:23:44] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:23:44] Yeah! I don't have, I don't have huge complaints from a GI standpoint overall, but I did notice over this last, and I don't know if this was COVID related or what I noticed.

[00:23:55] You know, I was finding myself a little more bloated feeling. I was actually having some, I was waking up just feeling like full at night and I wasn't sleeping as well. And I know that cause I wear my Oura ring. And so I could see like too many wakings at night. And I wasn't feeling as refreshed as I could.

[00:24:14] And I was gassy in the morning. It's like, that's so strange. And it...

[00:24:18] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:24:18] Were  you just waking up or you're waking because you had to like have a bowel movement because you needed to pee? 

[00:24:26] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:24:26] Waking up from  like, almost like GI discomfort and And so, and you know, if you know anything about me, I value my sleep.

[00:24:35]And so it was, it was disruptive to me. And I also noticed that over that kind of period of time, I got like less consistently good bowel movements. They were like looser and. That was like, I knew something was up. So I was like, well, I kind of intuitively knew. I think I probably have a little bit of this.

[00:24:54]And I can reflect back on my life and probably said, this has been a trend that I've flirted with. We could go all day about maybe why it head injuries? Ya-huh. Antibiotics? Yeah. Stress? Sure. Yeah. Right. And so this is what, like, this is what I find. Beautiful and frustrating about this. It's beautiful in the way of like, you can be like, Hey, something's wrong and we can do something about it, but it can be frustrated because it's like 95% of the world is walking around with like seven major risk factors for developing this.

[00:25:28] And then you throw a global pandemic on top of it. So I can, I can, I can confirm with you that, that these are. These are true symptoms of a SIBO, a I'll say a mild SIBO suffer. Cause 

[00:25:41] I think that I have my symptoms pale in comparison to some of my other patients. But  there's certainly there and they definitely have improved since I started doing something about this.

[00:25:50] And I want to get your take on, well, one, how would you treat this case? And I'll tell you what I did. And And then, you know, we can, can expand that to, okay, well, this was a hydrogen dominant case. Like how are you going to treat maybe something that's methane or something that's actually...

[00:26:14] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:26:14] There are a couple of different ways to approach treatment of SIBO. I commonly resort to herbal antimicrobial combination therapy. There are a couple of multi-center steam team formulations that that have been researched in the past, that can be helpful. But also just assembling a a well-rounded herbal antimicrobial combination can be really effective too.

[00:26:42] A lot of times that include herbs like berberine and or meme sometimes garlic in the form of allicin to be active. That tends to be more so for methane producing bacteria. So for some people, an herbal approach is is well suited. For others, we can use some antibiotics. This specific one that's used for SIBO is Rifaximin.

[00:27:06]The reason why we tend to use that particular antibiotic is because it is specific to the lumen of the intestines meaning that it doesn't have a very broad spectrum approach. And that can be, you know, that's just better in general, right? We don't want to kill all the bugs all over our body if we don't have to.

[00:27:24]There are some drawbacks to that too. Then a third approach for some people can be to use an elemental diet, which is basically food in elemental form over a period of two weeks. And. Kind of the approach there is to starve the bacteria. And, and that's actually interesting. If we talk about treatments that's, there's some divergent theories there.

[00:27:43] Some people think starving the bacteria while you killing them is most effective and, and still others think well, fed bacteria are easier to kill. And so You know, that there's a difference in opinion or approach there. And, and that may be a part of the nuance of like treating one person versus another always there's a nutritional component to that.

[00:28:03]We tend to try to avoid those foods that can trigger those food, babies or other unsavory symptoms. There tends to be with a, SIBO a fair bit of recurrence, and sometimes that means just changing up the. Protocol that was used from one, from one attempt to the next. But also good gut health regular well-formed consistent bowel movements, I think are a big goal and a big aim that I've been coaching my patients on of late for how to kind of resolve this on a more long-term basis.

[00:28:35] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:28:35] All right. So, Dr. Brian, what am I, what am I doing with these results? What are you telling me to do? 

[00:28:40] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:28:40] I would treat this person, this, "this person"...you, with let's see I would do suburban and either some neem oregano. And I would do that berberine like 1500 milligrams, three times a day. And whether you're doing Nime or oregano, you could just vary on the the dosage of that.

[00:28:59] If you're doing name, you do 600 milligrams, three times a day. If you're doing oregano a hundred milligrams three times a day I think that would be oregano. I would do maybe. Maybe that would be a little bit better indicated for you because there is a little bit of methane there. I think I might just stick to berberine and neem if it was hydrogen only.

[00:29:16]Yeah, if there was a higher amount of allicin or above of a methane, like I mentioned, then using something like allicin, and then there's even another herb that can help or another herbal blend called a Tarantino that can be really helpful for kind of like blunting or minimizing that that, that gas.

[00:29:34] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:29:34] Well, let me, let me share with you what I did. 

[00:29:37] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:29:37] Okay. 

[00:29:37] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:29:37] All right. I did none of those things and what, well, that's done highly true.  One, I use that all the time. I used these results as an opportunity to, to experiment with some new treatment ideas. You know, the. Classical berberine, oregano oil.

[00:29:55] I use it successfully almost all the time with the patients, Trental with the methane. So I totally agree with you on that. The garlic, I, I kind of go back and forth on some people tolerate it. Some people don't love, you know, the garlic burp...

[00:30:11] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:30:11] And I just want to jump in right there and say, so using garlic. Like food, garlic... Isn't always going to be as agreeable, the sulfur in that can be a little bit irritating to people who are SIBO positive. So I just want to jump in and say like, don't interpret that as like, Oh great. If I just eat garlic with my food, like I'm going to feel better because you might actually feel worse.

[00:30:31] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:30:31] Much worse!

[00:30:32] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:30:32] There's a specific chemical constituent from garlic called allicin. That's got some nice anti-microbial properties and that's what we're using. 

[00:30:40] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:30:40] Great. Yeah. Good. That was a great clarification. Pretty important there because like garlic, right? Yeah. I, I ate a whole bowl the garlic every day, and I know I got like a huge food baby.

[00:30:53]But I agree with you on all that. And those are things that I commonly will commonly will do. So from an herbal approach, I'll take that just in isolation. I'll we can take this. Screenshot from an, from an herbal approach. I actually experimented with a kind of a combination herbal tincture of a mixture of berberine. Like you mentioned, myrrh and thyme. 

[00:31:20] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:31:20] Cool. 

[00:31:20] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:31:20] So I made that tastes. Not good. But I took that a few teaspoons a couple of teaspoons three times a day. I also combined that with an herb called uva ursi and took that in a similar dosage and some argentyn 23 silver hydrosol to be, to be more specific, but yeah, in that, in that realm Yeah.

[00:31:46] So I decided to kind of try out a protocol and part of the reason why is I wanted to expand that treatment outside of hydrogen into a little bit of some biofilm disrupting, and that's probably a topic for another day. But also To cover a little hydrogen sulfide as well. The piece that you don't know about that is I do have some GI map results from diagnostics that had some enlightening information on some of the families there.

[00:32:16] So, you know, I'm kind of withholding information here. I know that's not fair, but that's why I chose the treatment. I did what I hope that that illuminates though, right? Is that there's like. There's like this, I don't want to say standard operating procedure, but there's these, these things that we know that work.

[00:32:32] But when you start to like understand the human who's sitting in front of you and you get maybe more data or more symptoms, you may have to stray away from that box and say, this is actually much more indicated. And of course. You pay attention to their symptoms, their improvements, and then, you know, retest them to make sure you were accomplishing...

[00:32:54] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:32:54] Like a good scientist. 

[00:32:55] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:32:55] Like a good  scientist, yeah. Accomplishing those goals. A couple of the other things. Not only that I like, I mean, I focus on myself, but these are things that I emphasize with my patients. Two to three meals a day, no snacks. And I say two to three, because I mean, some of my patients do a time restricted eating or, or what other people call intermittent fasting and they don't eat breakfast, so they kind of only eat twice a day.

[00:33:21] So. All right. Well, I don't, I'm not trying to force someone to eat three times if they're only eating twice. And it's something that I do relatively routinely, so I'm only usually using two, two times a day. But no snacking. And the mechanism behind that is to stop like drip feeding the small intestine with food to actually give that migrating motor complex.

[00:33:41] Like you said, that opportunity to fully pulsatile the, remove that food out of the small intestine. So reasonable aim or goal would be four hours between those meals then. Yeah. To help that migrating motor complex action. Yeah, so that, that is something I, I often recommend from a, like a food behavior standpoint, obviously the normal food hygiene of chew. You know, don't drink a ton of water while you're eating, you know, don't guzzle a big gulp while you're also trying to, you know, eat your...

[00:34:14] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:34:14] Ever.

[00:34:18] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:34:18] I moreso meant like a big gulp of water, but yeah, soda would be bad too. 

[00:34:26] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:34:26] There's never a good time for that. 

[00:34:28] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:34:28] Right. You know, that normal food, food hygiene stuff I think is important. I personally will occasionally use digestive enzymes to better facilitate breakdown. I think these are useful to use sometimes in real stressed out people to kind of cheat the system a little bit. And I don't love the idea of using them long-term we don't have to, but there's a time and a place. Right. For some of the maybe gallbladder missing people, we'll entertain using some ox bile as well to replace that.

[00:35:02]You know, and, and that's from, from like the beginnings of digestion to the food habits, to the meal timing. I think that's what we use. I emphasize a low carbohydrate diet. I know you, you're kind of in that same ballpark, as far as treating SIBO there, it's just removing the, you know, the source of fuel.

[00:35:22] Yeah. So that you talked about starving them, that, you know, I think there's a balance there of like making sure we can eat sustainably. Right that we feel good get enough energy, et cetera, but simultaneously, you know, try to minimize the bugs. And so from my case, I, you know, I generally maintain a relatively low carbohydrate diet though. I will say up until this, it was a little heavier than I normally ...

[00:35:49] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:35:49] You must've been adding some, some fuel to the fire here. 

[00:35:53] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:35:53] No question. I was, and I have choked that fuel out. And not only do, like, not only do I feel better, gastrointestinally I feel better full stop. End of sentence. You know, and I know I do.

[00:36:06] So it might be also Brian, why I love and Kelly, you're part of this too. Why I love fasting? Like maybe that's a component cause I always generally find it easy. I generally find it easy. I feel pretty good. And it's not unreasonable to think that a component of that is, you know, I've stopped poisoning myself on a routine basis with, you know, small intestinal, bacterial overgrowth.

[00:36:33]Dr. Brian Myers: [00:36:33] A Pathology of excess, you might say. Fascinating. And, and this may be more of a topic for another day. I think it is. But just, you mentioned that fasting tends to be easy for you and I just want it, like, what was it easy the first time you did it? 

[00:36:47] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:36:47] Yeah!

[00:36:48] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:36:48] Okay, cool. Yeah, that isn't always the case, so...

[00:36:51] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:36:51] Yeah, I mean, I've had harder ones, but I think that I think it's just that I don't know. It's something that I can just like wrap my head around really well. And and mentally I don't find it. I don't find it that, that hard. I love eating. I love cooking and I miss chewing when I'm fasting. But like, other than that, I don't think I miss. Like, I really don't miss food.

[00:37:14] I find I have valuable. And sustainable energy. Most of the time, sometimes getting into one, like day one, you know, it's a little rough, but but that picks up really quickly. Yeah. 

[00:37:28] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:37:28] Yeah. Like day two, day three. Yeah. 

[00:37:30] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:37:30] But that's just me. And I don't think that... Kellie, I  think you can...you moderate some parts of our fasting group there. I think that's the exception and not the rule, Hey? 

[00:37:39] Kellie - Marketing: [00:37:39] Yeah. Well, and we can also ask you that during a fast and not after

[00:37:43] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:37:43] Yeah. Right!

[00:37:44] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:37:44] You're not hungry. You're "hangry" right now, are ya?

[00:37:47] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:37:47] I think that maybe if we went back and watched some of my, like, literally like in the middle of fasting videos, people might be calling BS on that. I'm not entirely sure. But when I reflect on them, I can reflect on them fondly. So that must mean they're not miserable. 

[00:38:02] The outcome creates a space for gratitude, right? So that's noteworthy. 

[00:38:07] Yeah. So Brian, we hit on this a little bit with this migrating motor complex. But I want to focus on one thing in particular from a motility standpoint, because, pro motility agents are optimal gut motility in that small intestine from a migrating motor complex standpoint is arguably like crucial and like the crux behind this being a successful treatment or, or not. And there are there are medications that support this. There are herbs that support this.

[00:38:43] One could probably argue stress and stress reduction and overall improving gut health is going to play a large role in this. But you use a certain treatment called LDN or low dose naltrexone. Not only kind of through this lens, but also through a bigger picture lens. And I just want to hear again, it might be a bigger topic to talk about later, but I just want to talk about the usage in it for four SIBO and then a brief little, like what's the general population that's actually using this, this medication?

[00:39:15] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:39:15] Yeah. So like I mentioned earlier, regular consistent well-formed bowel movements is a goal. For SIBO treatment. And part of that meaning means having good motility, supporting the migrating motor complex as part of that. And there are some agents that we tend to use, particularly in our patient population that tends towards constipation, but not just limiting to the limited to those people. Low dose naltrexone is the off label use of naltrexone.  Naltrexone itself is an opioid antagonist. So it's used to help people with opioid addictions can also work for people that have in a positive way for people that are struggling with alcohol use. But those are topics for another day.

[00:39:57]When we're using the low dose form, we're using one 10th to one, 100th the strength of a standard naltrexone. And it seems to have some really positive benefits on overall gut health. The theorized method of action is that it blocks our opiod receptors for just long enough to promote an increase in our own endogenous endorphins.

[00:40:21] And and that has a positive effect. On a number of different levels. So LDN can be a nice Immune modulator for people struggling with autoimmune conditions and or cancer. And it can be a positive for people that are struggling with mood disorders as well. The range for LDN is wide, but the specific use for SIBO is as a mild motility agent.

[00:40:44] So it does function well as a mild motility agent, and that can be really helpful for people when we're aiming to get those regular. More consistent bowel movements than like once every couple of days or even, you know, once every other day it can be really effective to help have more consistent bowel movements. It's typically taken in the evening just prior to bedtime and can help again with that migrating motor complex while you're sleeping to help form a well-formed bowel movement in the morning. 

[00:41:11] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:41:11] Yeah. So it's a, it's like a unique medication. And most of my patients know, I don't like just jump to, you know, Hey, I suggest you take this medication, but this one is, has a, a lot of value in a lot of different realms, like through this lens of SIBO, especially because it can present itself in  more complex cases with anxiety or with depression or with autoimmune like it does just, you can have SIBO and these other things, and there are some one could call them side benefits and, you know, that's one of the things that I say about, of a lot of our therapies here is we try to use certain compounds that are going to have side benefits. Yes. They're going to help the problem that is taking up the most room on your plate.

[00:41:54] The thing that sucks, but it's also going to have, you know, a web of positive effects on your system. Ideally, you know, ones that you can feel and some that maybe are kind of behind the scenes, treating something objectively. 

[00:42:10] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:42:10] Yeah, there's some other nice benefits to it too. In addition to like all of the like wide ranging positive benefits, the buy-in is relatively low in that there's, there's, there's very little risks to no risk using this medication for even a short term or a longterm period of time. The half-life is relatively short, so it washes out of your system pretty quickly. And the biggest complaint I've experienced and that is reported is more vivid dreams. For some people that's fantastic. They love dreaming, and they like it when it's more real life-like. So for those people. Great. And then there's easy workarounds for people who are struggling with that, or, you know, some people experience a little bit of vertigo or I mean, you know, there's easy workarounds for those. And like I said, the risk is that there really isn't any unsavory side effects other than those kinds of things. So, yeah.

[00:42:58] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:42:58] Yeah. Perfect. Well, I mean, I'll, I'll end this you know, to make sure we respect everyone's time, but I'll end this in saying that sIBO is a pain in the butt literally and figuratively. And I think we got to some reasons as to why it can be because it's so multifactorial, it is dealing with microbes that are normal. They're supposed to be there, but just not in that amount. So it's like, you're not looking at eradicating a pathogen. And once it's gone, great. It's this gray area, this balance. And I think that I mean, I think that's why maybe us Naturopathic Doctors are the ones that tend to see this and understand this because we operate in this gray area of, it's not like black or white, it's this, this, this problem.

[00:43:45] And, and, and because of its multifactorial nature, its relationship to stress or potentially, food poisoning or potentially you know, structural abnormalities and nervous system dysfunction. Here is a degree of relapse that can happen and that's, that's frustrating. But I think that that is an important piece to bring up right at the forefront, that this is a chronic challenge that we're going to have to learn how to understand and help you figure out how to operate with.

[00:44:15] But you know, this conversation we got to have today was great. I think that we hit on some other, like real reasons why this problems kind of exists and, you know, illuminated those pillars that we gotta be paying attention to. Whether it's food or food timing or stress, or understanding our own medical history and how it can create an environment that might be susceptible to this, knowing the symptoms that we should be paying attention to. So if you're struggling from, you know, a, B and C..."maybe. I have SIBO?" And then maybe I want to sit in front of someone who knows what that is and then what to do about it, and also how to individualize it, because we already talked about today, how there's, you know, a handful almost a plethora of different treatment approaches for this to, to fix that.

[00:45:06] So I want to thank you for, for sharing that with our audience and, and Kellie from, from, from your perspective, anything else we need to kind of Wrap up with you have a better understanding of SIBO? 

[00:45:18] Kellie - Marketing: [00:45:18] Yeah, actually it definitely answered a lot of my questions. But I also just wanted to say if anybody has any further questions about SIBO or about any other of the treatments or things that have been talked about today, you can find on our website there is a request, an appointment section @revivenatmed.com. You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook. And we also have a free 15 minute consult that you can talk to any one of our doctors.

[00:45:49] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:45:49] Yeah. And and look forward to you know, having a couple more of these with you, Brian. And and these are, these are valuable opportunities to just bounce ideas off each other. 

[00:46:01] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:46:01] Yeah. Yeah, this was fun. I have like a list of other ones we can do. It's easy to make. 

[00:46:07] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:46:07] Perfect. Well, thank you both and have a good rest of your day. And for anyone who watched this long... thank you. 

[00:46:15] Dr. Brian Myers: [00:46:15] Thank you. Made it to the end! Congratulations!

[00:46:28] Dr. Derek Lawrence: [00:46:28] Made it to the end.

Biofeedback VS Neurofeedback: What's the Difference?

Biofeedback Explained

Biofeedback is a treatment that uses a device to help the body measure what it's doing and then feeds that information back to the body. Quite often it involves using some sort of electronic device with wires or leads that are placed somewhere on the body. That reading is some sort of physiological information that the body is giving off, and then feeding that information back to the body. Sometimes it's active or passive, meaning that the patient has a role to play or something that they need to do, and sometimes the device is just communicating with the body while the patient is sitting there calmly. The primary difference between neurofeedback biofeedback is that when the device is placed on the head, it is called neurofeedback, and anything that happens below the head, the rest of the body, is biofeedback. That's the most essential difference between the two.

In neurofeedback, there are a lot of different types. Some of them have all sorts of leads coming out of a cap and many different wires on the head—that's not the type we use at Revive. We use a type that involves one or two wires only, simultaneously on the head, and perhaps some ear clips at the end. There are no more than a few wires coming off of the head while it's reading brainwave activity, then feeding that information back to the brain in order to help the brain make balanced and positive changes. The essential difference there is that neurofeedback is going to have, the focus is going to be on the head, biofeedback is basically anywhere other than the head—we would put the leads somewhere on the body, such as the abdomen, the chest an arm or a leg, wherever it's indicated for the treatment.

neurofeedback-biofeedback-specialist

What are the Uses of Biofeedback?

A common use for biofeedback is pain or dysfunction in the body. It's wonderful for helping to reset stuck pain patterns or chronic pain. It's wonderful to help speed up healing. It can also be used over the heart center for somebody who's experiencing anxiety or tension.

Leads can also be placed on the abdomen for digestive issues: constipation, gas, and bloating in the gut. It can also just be placed on the shoulders for general tension—anywhere that there is muscle tension, trigger points, etc… Different places where we can put the leads are on ankles, any joint really that's painful, any muscle that is painful—it's wonderful for that. Quite often, even though we might be treating pain, some patients experience a decrease in their stress and anxiety. Even if we're treating, say the knee, for example.

Passive or Active Treatments?

Here at Revive, we used systems of neurofeedback and biofeedback that are considered passive, meaning that the patient does not need to do anything while they're receiving the treatment. Traditionally, a lot of neurofeedback devices require that the patient pay attention to a screen or some sort of monitor. They are the ones looking at the feedback that they're getting from the device, and then actively helping to make changes. Whereas with the devices that we used here, there's no expected work on the part of the patient. They can just sit back and relax while we're helping the body to make those adjustments internally and on its own.

So why do we choose a passive versus an active approach to biofeedback and neurofeedback at Revive?

The short answer is that it allows the body to heal itself. Going more in-depth into that: I don't profess to know what a patient's body truly needs, and I believe in the natural healing ability that all of our bodies have. I also believe that our bodies are infinitely wiser than I can ever be and that the body really knows what it needs—sometimes it needs just a little bit of nudge or adjustment in moving in that direction.

So we have adopted a passive approach because it falls in line with our philosophy as Naturopathic Doctors: the body is wise and knows how to heal itself with just a little help and nudge in the right direction. The passive approach accomplishes just that, and it's really quite wonderful because the device isn't the thing healing the patient, it's the patient's own body that does the healing.

How Long are Treatments?

The duration of the treatment for both the biofeedback and neurofeedback treatments that we do in this clinic are quite short. Generally, they're just seconds long, perhaps to minutes, but usually less than a minute.

Thanks for reading this quick article about biofeedback and neurofeedback and their various uses at our clinic. If there are any questions that I didn't answer, please, don't hesitate to call our clinic and schedule a free phone call consult with me, and I'd be happy to answer any questions that you still have.